Posted by Chris (you should know what to expect by now)
Disclaimer: I wrote this post under the influence of my emotions. Be cautious.
Hey, so there is something really frustrating that I would like to talk about today ladies and gentlemen. By frustrating I really mean annoying but I want to use a less offensive word in case any of my friends or loved ones fall into this category. I must admit that I have probably been guilty of the annoying pet peeve that I am about to talk about as well so mostly I just want to explore the issue to confirm that it really is my problem to deal with. In fact the more I think about it the more I realize that it is. If you don’t mind I will still share it with you.
I noticed a few years ago that I have a very eclectic group of friends. I have friends that are very Conservative and I have friends that are very Liberal. I have friends that are incredibly religious and I have friends who are Atheists. I have friends that are into Art, music, and Theatre and friends that are into sports and ninja skills (maybe those shouldn’t be grouped together). I have friends who only feel comfortable in polo shirts and friends whose arms are covered with beautiful tattoos. My point is not to say I am sooo popular (in a cheerleader voice) because really I probably like all my friends more than they like me but they still let me hang with them and we talk about anything and everything. One thing I am very proud of is the fact that none of my friends would be offended by discussing a view or belief that is in direct conflict with their own opinions. I loooove it when I have friends together and they talk about issues that they disagree on. They are never rude or disrespectful. I think all of my associations are very classy people and would never stoop to manipulation or mean(ness) to get a point across. I adore you all. You have done so much to shape my views of this world.
My frustration I think is of a cultural nature. I noticed that many of my friends share my LDS faith. Many of these people I met in High School or work situations and when we get together it’s nice to have someone who is familiar with LDS culture who can share ideas and discuss events and changes that only an LDS person would care about. This is one area of interest that I share with these people but it is never the defining point of our friendship.
Here’s the point I’ve been trying to get to. Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think I ever initially met ANY of my LDS friends within a church related context. I’m talking about Elder’s Quorum, Church activities, Sunday School, etc. Yet all of my LDS friends participate in these activities. It makes me question if we would have become as tight as we are now had we initially met with me serving in the capacity of ,say, a home teacher. As much as the church encourages social interaction and forming friendships I have to admit that it’s hard to be honest and open with my humanness in front of church peers. I don’t know if this is good or bad. Maybe you can help me.
Here’s my philosophy on the subject if you will bear with me a little longer. For a drama-seeking individual like myself the idea of a society where everyone believes the same way has ZERO appeal. I am not looking forward to the apocalypse where all evil people are destroyed by fire and the righteous are all living happily together free from the evil worldliness that we are currently surrounded with. The same goes for heaven (That joke about not wanting to go to heaven because they don’t like to have any fun comes to mind) If it is like the contained socializing that happens at church BBQ’s I’m bored already.
When we LDS folks get together why are we so obsessed with maintaining the impression that we are perfect? Seriously! That we have never laughed at a sacrilegious Simpson’s episode? That we have never seen an R rated movie that was beautiful and inspiring and made us want to be better people? That some actor/actress wasn’t smoking hot in a certain movie? That sometimes we break our fast early or go to church late? That we sometimes fall asleep during conference? That we ate (coffee containing) Tiramisu at a restaurant last night. That we read a novel that contained a sex scene or some “F” bombs. That we like to get it on with our spouse because they are smoking hot and not because we have an obligation to bring babies down from heaven. That we actually GAMBLED with M&M’s or quarters to make a game of poker more interesting? That we spent money on the Sabbath buying some cold medicine for our sick spouse? It goes on and on and on my friends. Some of you may be thinking that I am Satan’s mouth piece right now but please allow me to be very opinionated for a moment.
Your imperfections (at least deviations from the norm) are usually what make you interesting. I wouldn’t like you if you ever achieved your goal of perfection because then we wouldn’t have anything in common. This idea of playing the role of a perfect person is so out of touch with what makes this life beautiful. I say “playing a role” because I think we are all just faking this ideal because we don’t really have a clue what a perfect person would be like. I wish we could study Christ’s interactions with the sinners that he dined with. We are trying to judge the world and convert the world at the same time. It’s hard to know if someone who thinks different from yourself is your enemy or a possible convert.
My wife recently became involved with a book club with several women from Relief Society. At the first meeting they discussed which books might be good to read. Shannon had done some research online and found a highly recommended book for reading groups because of the many interesting discussion topics it raised and proposed it for the discussion. Although Shannon loves books that contain a little controversy that shake things up ( a characteristic that I adore about her), she decided to recommend one of the most conservative of all the books that she had researched. The group decided that Shannon’s recommendation sounded like the most interesting book and that it would be the first book they would read.
The week passed and the day before the next meeting Shannon received a call from a good friend of hers in the group who told her that many of the other group members were offended by the content of the book and would not be participating in the discussion. This was a little concerning to Shannon who began leafing again through the assigned material TRYING to find some of the offensive content and was dumbfounded. Then she came across a curse word that she deduced must have been the cause of the controversy. The line was appropriate for the character speaking it and was a necessary choice in establishing her true mindset. Judging the value of this literary work based on a single word is really just saying that you refuse to acknowledge that there are people in the world who swear.
Shannon showed up the next evening with the book they had originally agreed on and discovered that she was the only one who brought it. The other women in the group thought the best solution to this problem would be to choose another book and discuss that book as though the first book had never been chosen. Unfortunately no one bothered trying to contact Shannon about this change who obviously felt a little self-conscious about bringing the book that had been shunned by majority opinion. No mention was made about the previous selection. No one asked why Shannon brought it or how she felt about the change or if she even knew about it. No one attempted to soften the obvious blow instead they decided the best way to address this problem was to speak of their disgust and offense in private to one another and then pretend as though the previous book had never been proposed. Excellent solution! That way you don’t actually have to talk out loud about anything uncomfortable. What a great way to avoid conflict!
I’m so proud that these women were so willing to stand up to their convictions that there should be no people in the world who think differently than themselves and make my wife feel like shit (don’t worry this is the only curse word in my post. You can read safely on). Maybe it’s best if we take every opportunity to let the rest of the world know how much more we love the lord than they do. Seriously, would he really approve of this behavior?
I’m sorry (not really) but this is pathetic and incredibly inconsiderate. I’m sure that these LDS women are trying to improve themselves and be Christ like but many of us have different views about how Christ would choose to interact with common people.
Let’s think for a moment…..Would you say that Christ’s teaching approach was more of a “help people to learn and understand his wisdom for themselves” kind of approach or more of a “help people understand what is good by making them feel crappy when they act differently from my own personal beliefs” approach . Can’t you just envision the twelve apostles giving a new convert the silent treatment for talking about the outdated wisdom of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth? “Didn’t you get the memo loser? We’re better than that now.”
What is helpful about expressing how offended you are at something if all you accomplish is offending someone else? If they don’t agree with you is there a possibility that they are just not on the same page as you (because they are not yet as wise and experienced as yourself)?
The level of sarcasm in this post is shameful I know.
I have many great LDS friends but I have a problem with not being myself. The cool thing is that when we are outside of this type of situation we DO act human. We have to! It’s not healthy psychologically to suppress our opinions all the time. I think that if this book club was a neighborhood book club and not a Ward book club these women might still hold their opinions but they would take the opportunity to help others understand their mindset and maybe (at the same time) even open themselves up to a little constructive criticism. Maybe complete censoring of the outside world is not the best solution to help people come to a knowledge of the truth.
I hope I didn’t offend anyone I’m just really frustrated with this. My friends are honest with me about the goods, bad, trials, and successes they experience that make life great. I love them for this. I know the Christ-like response is to never get really offended by anything a fellow church member says or does but it doesn’t change the fact that sometimes we can feel hurt, out of place, or even ostracized for being ourselves.
Is there any wisdom that you can impart to me? Am I just a Drama-seeking artist? Do any of you agree that this is a reoccurring frustration within our highly religious culture?
I am now willing to accept your advice and/or condemnations. I promise I won’t be offended if you put me in my place……..(maybe). Thank you for your time.
Scrooge With Hives
1 week ago
16 comments:
I think you totally hit the nail on the head! There are so many people like that in the LDS culture that it is sometimes sickening. It's hard when you feel like you can't be yourself, but we just need to be and know that if they are ture friends then they will like you for who you are and the opinions that you have, and if not, well then they aren't true friends.
I am curious to know what Shannon ended up doing.
I have never had a true friend through church - I have had several people I thought were true friends treat me like crap when times were tough though.
Church has some problems ... but since church is "us" ... well, the problem lies with us. I don't know how to fix it, except with honesty and tolerance.
I'm done with the silliness of pretending everything is bliss. I'm not pretending anymore. I'm just going to plow through interactions, I won't play like we're all perfect and happy.
No one invites us to dinner anyway.
Hey, I know, you guys should come to my house for dinner ... how's October 24th looking for you? I'll read the book club book (i probably own it) - we can discuss like adults.
Maybe our church confuses the whole "be like a child" and "put away childish things" issues.
All I know, is at 31, I'm not going to fake it anymore. I'll just say it like I see it.
Sorry she had this experience. They sound like a bunch of spineless goody two-shoes. People do try and act good and better then they are, but I find this in and out of the church.
I have found the more honest and open I am, the more those around me are too. Everyone wants to put their best self forward, and unfortunately too many members of the church think they need to be perfect now. What most do not understand is it does not matter what they do as ultimately it is only the Savior that will save us. So be real, fall, stumble, help others learn from your mistakes and their own without feeling worthless.
But hey, I am preaching to the choir here.
In looking back on it, I've actually had quite a few close friends who I met through church. I actually met Dave Jenson and Matt Bellows on a Boy Scout activity long before we all did drama together. The fact that we all lived close together made it much easier to visit other friends, like say, you, who lived way out in Riverton. When I was at a BYU singles ward all of my friends came from there. In fact, I didn't have a single close friend who I had met in class or anywhere else on campus. When I was at a single's ward in South Jordan, however, I didn't make any friends. When we were in Pittsburgh, nearly all of our friends were people we had met through church. Here in Qatar, we have several friends that we've met through church, and several through work. I guess what I'm getting at is I can definitely see where you're coming from, but I don't think it necessarily has to be the case.
I think one of the big things about all these friendships is that we'd probably be friends even if we hadn't met through church. We have several things in common, not just religion (though we do occassionally talk about that). I think that's the real key. Moving into a ward is kind of hit-or-miss, as you don't really know what the people are going to be like or what their interests will be. In Utah, since your ward is basically your neighborhood, you're probably going to be living near people in a similar economic class as you are, since you could all afford the same houses. That's about it. I'm sure you've found that most people who end up going into something with art end up leaving the church before they get to be our age. So you're stuck with people who probably don't share any of the same interests as you. It doesn't help that you're not into BYU football or Glenn Beck, because that's what Mormon guys our age like to talk about.
On the other hand, I don't think Mormons actually talk about their religion as much as they think they do. Several of the talks from last Conference seemed to indicate that we spend very little time bearing testimony or sharing what our religion really means to each other. So there's the one thing you have in common and you probably don't talk about it all that much at the Ward BBQ. Sure, you might talk about church callings or churchy things, but how often do you really have an insightful spiritual discussion with your burger?
So as for some extreme advice, you could A) move to a ward with more interesting people, or B) start cheering on the Cougs. That or we need to start actually talking about spiritual things. We need to develop the same society that the apostles enjoy. Do you think that anyone else in the quorum of the twelve wants to have a serious conversation about aviation with Elder Uchtdorf? Probably not. They probably talk about what the scriptures mean without giving stock answers.
Are you defending my honor, Chris? I have to say; I'm a little turned on...
To be fair, I don't think the book club thing was that big of a deal. I was embarrassed, and felt a little left out, but I wasn't offended because I know that it wasn't anyone's intention to offend me. Nor do I think that they are all a bunch of prudes, I think it has more to do with it being a church sponsored activity. I would like to find one that is not affiliated with the church, but in the mean time I'm sure I'll keep going since I'm so desperate for adult interactions and friendships.
Brandy, are you serious in your invitation? Because if you are we would totally love to have dinner with you. We'll even get a babysitter for the occasion. I have to admit I might be a little star struck though--since I think you're like the coolest person ever.(Email me if you're serious. cubbysgirl02@yahoo.com) Oh, and the book we had original chosen was one that I got off of your blog, A Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood. I would love to discuss it with you.
As for you, Chris, I see your point, but I also see yours, Dave. I think people's experiences can vary greatly depending on the ward where one lives, and also the amount of effort one puts into establishing meaningful relationships. And I know you'll be the first to admit that you have put about ZERO effort into making friends in the different wards we've been in since we were married. You can't expect it to just happen on its own or wait for someone else to make the effort. You have to be willing to put yourself out there even if it means feeling a little snubbed now and then.
Then again, I feel like I really am trying and have been for the year that we’ve lived here and have yet to establish any real meaningful relationships. People are nice to me, and I enjoy their company, but I always get the impression that they could take me or leave me. I’m not trying to sound pathetic. And I’m certainly not looking for validation; I’m just saying I guess I don’t know what the answer is. Sometimes I think I’m trying too hard, and sometimes I think I’m not doing enough. Can you “make friends” or is that just something that happens on its own when you meet the right person?
Excellent points all of you. Thank you for your contributions.
To answer George's question I don't think Shannon has really done much about this yet (but it just happened). Like she said in her post she took it pretty well. My guess is that she will just join another book club. I'm not trying to pick a fight for her but when I see my wife get hurt I get mean because I know how good a person she really is. It's not a huge issue but it is one example illustrating my over-all point.
Brandy, I have only read your blogs but I already adore you. I would love the opportunity to meet you and your family in person.
Emmy, Thank you for your comment. I think we(I) tend to talk about the opinions of "the church" a lot. The "church's view tends to be represented by whatever members are being most opinionated. There is no doctrine that says we have the ability to be perfect right now but yet we are supposed to strive to be perfect (even though we don't understand what that even means). Not just really good but PERFECT. We all know in general what "good" is but the nitty gritties are a little tougher. It's not helpful to pretend that all the general authorities messages are entirely consistent in this regard.
Mrs. B said the church is "us" which is an excellent statement which leaves us no excuses. But it is an "us" that is united by a doctrinal framework. I guess the answer is that it is my problem. I just feel it is abnormal to not have any close friendships that have come about within the church.
Dave, I love your comments and honesty. It seems like you really understand how hard it is for a Mormon guy who doesn't like football :) You spoke of friends you met in Boy scouts and it made me realize that Jason Webb was also a good friend that I met at church and scouts. However, it was closer to a school scenerio because we both knew that attending church was mandatory (and we were pretty rebellious). When you put kids together sometimes they become friends. Adults are not forced to attend church activities. By being present they are saying that they take it seriously.
I hear people talk about how members act differently in different parts of the world and it makes me wonder what that would be like. Why does our church seem to understand itself better when it is spread out and not all gathered together?
You mentioned that we need to be quicker to speak about spiritual things openly but let's be honest. The spirit tells people different things. I think we would be very surprised if we found out how many holes (or dissagreements)everyone has in their beliefs. Our testimonies are all based in different areas. Are we coming together because we want to learn from each other or are we coming together because we think we already have everything in common?
And my beloved Shannon. Thank you for putting me in my place (I'm so offended) :) Okay I will admit that I am incredibly sensitive and I care WAY too much about what other people think of me. It is hard for someone like me to be open about my opinions when I sense they are different from the majority in a group. I know it's horrible but I don't open up to a person unless they are open about their imperfections (That's why I already love Mrs. B). They have to be real. I'm not saying that most people aren't"real" but I am saying they don't tend to be in a church context.
I was going to make the same realistic point, Chris, but I wanted to sound optimistic. I could see it going over really well if at the ward BBQ I brought up verses like "Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me," and then ask them how they cannot support social reforms and universal health care. And when they start talking about money and government I'll bring up how you can't serve both God and mammon and how we should render under to Caeser what is Caeser's. Yeah, everybody LOVES that guy.
Making friends simply gets harder the older you get. Most people don't want new friends. This would actually be pretty interesting to talk about at the next ward BBQ. I mean, do they really just show up for church for 3 hours and rush home as quickly as possible so they don't have to interact anymore, or are there other people like you who wish they had better relationships with people in the ward?
I think you're right. It is much harder to invest in relationships outside of your family as you get older but we all still want them.
I do envy you when you talk about how open and friendly members are in Quatar and Pittsburg etc. I hope I get the opportunity to experience that. Maybe for now I'll just be happy if my home teachers show up (once in 4 years).
Well, my curosity is piqued and I think I will have to pick up a copy of the book and see what the "fuss" was all about.
1. I have a package of Dove Chocolates--Tiramisu flavored-- stashed away in an undisclosed location somewhere in my house this very minute (although, in my defense, it was on clearance for $1.50 and quite honestly, I forgot that Tiramisu has coffee in it) Didn't stop me from eating it. Also, it's hidden so the kids and Andrew won't eat it, not because I am ashamed of it's coffee-ness.
2. Yes, Mormons can be self-righteous. However, this is a general human trait found in just about any Christian denomination and not limited to Mormon-dom.
3. We have lived in our ward for about ten years now and I am only just starting to have friends here that I can hang out with outside of church. I attribute this not to a fault of the church, but because it is just hard to make friends in general with people you really only see once a week. Just because you live in the same neighborhood with people doesn't mean that you have the kind of personality that clicks in friendship (what Anne of Green Gables would call a "Kindred Spirit"). I know most of the regulars in my ward well enough to know that there aren't a lot of classical music/fine art/poetry loving people here that I can relate to on an intellectual level. Are they good people? Yes? can I discuss Shakespeare or Wordsworth with them? Only if it's a quote they can use in their talk or lesson. It's really almost like dating. It is truly hard to find people we totally jive with. Which should make us value the good friends we have more. Most of Andrew's and my closest friends are those that we have had since high school.
4. Shannon can come to my book club. We were organized from within the Relief Society, but at the very beginning we all agreed that we were not a church-associated club, because we didn't want to be limited in our material. One of the older ladies said that we if chose anything written by Gerald Lund she was out of there for good.:)
We have read a great variety of books, both fiction and non-fiction, some with small amounts of objectionable material, and have had very complex, open discussion about them. Anyway, if you're interested Shannon, we're meeting this Thursday at seven. Call me if you want details.
Ooh, Shannon....guurrrlll....I would have thrown a book at some bitches and you know I would have. Rude, inconsiderate, and self-righteous. I hope you didn't attend that book club again. Let's start our own book club!
Oh Bri-bri you crack me up! I love picturing you throwing a book at someone in a fit of rage! I would love to start a book club with you if for nothing else to have an excuse to go visit you in the big apple! :)
I feel the need to defend the women in my book club. I doubt that any of them read this blog, but in case they do I don’t want anyone to think that this was a passive aggressive way for me to air my grievances. They are all really nice and I don’t think of any of them as prudish or bitchy. It was me who didn’t make the distinction between a church book club and a neighborhood book club. The only over sight was them not telling me about the change, but looking back it really wasn’t that big of a deal.
But thanks everyone for jumping to my defense. I definitely know where to turn if I’m ever really scorned!
I would like to take responsibility for this whole event. It is really because of an overlook on my part that it occured. About a week after the book was chosen a lady came to me and told me about the language in the book and because it was to be published in the RS binder and advertised through RS she thought it was best to change the book. I said "sure, whatever" without really thinking about the consequences or feelings of others. She asked me to tell Shannon about the change and I said I would. Well, I let one day pass after another and I never told Shannon, until the acutal day of the event. I'm really sorry Shannon. And I could feel your uncomfortableness (is that a word?) at the event and did see that you brought the book. All I needed to say was "tell us about that book, Shann" and the whole thing could have been out in the open. I'm really sorry I didn't. And while I'm here a word about Shannon. She is an incredibly kind, caring individual that is genuine in all her dealings. She is the first person I would call if I needed help. I will admit, I am a little prudish. I always have been. I mean come on, I wore shorts to my knees in High School, in Vegas of all places, when booty shorts were really in. I've always had an "old soul." However one rule I always try to live by is "to each their own." What works for me does not work for everyone. Everyone is here to live the life of their choosing. Again, I'm sorry Shannon.
Oh man, this blog has the BEST topics!! You guys need to post more often. Also, you need to move on out here to the mission field! I love my parents home branch in Pennsylvania, everyone hangs out outside of church, there is a lot of mental illness, its fabulous:) My sisters keep telling me to read that book, Shannon! I have a hard time (as you know), putting down the Harry Potter and trashy novels. Can you imagine my selection if I were in your book club? *Umm..todays selection will be "Seduce me at Sunrise"* (which is an actual book that I love!) p.s. Are you all and Brandy seriously going to have dinner? I feel like an LDS friend matchmaker! YES!
When I lived in Utah, I didn't have a single friend that I met through church. Here in Oregon, I have met every single one of my friends at church. I think it is hard to be a Utah Mormon...too much of the keeping up with the Joneses. But out in the world, you have to stick together, because each other is all you've got!
Not everyone is as cool as you, Chris. Accept that fact and be nice to your pathetic ward members. HA!
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