Have any of you ever wondered how long you would want to live if you could actually decide such a thing? I don’t just mean until you are old but rather if you could decide to live for say 500 years or even 1000 or more? Is it silly to suggest that we would ever want it to end if we had the option of immortality?
Let’s think about it. To make such a decision would first require us to decide what it is about our lives that have made them so worth living. Then we would have to decide if those experiences, continued indefinitely, had a shelf life.
Imagine that you just found out that you had a few days to live and you were forced to look from this moment back at what experiences were the most meaningful to you. What would they be? Would it be a culmination of moments that you spent with loved ones? Would it be the feelings of mastering a certain discipline or skill set? Would it be pleasurable or thrilling experiences? Hot sex? Extreme sports? Breathtaking views in exotic locations? What are the exact things that you have experienced that you would want to continue living for in order to continue experiencing?
Now let’s consider what we do for the majority of our lives. We survive. The specifics have changed since the days of cavemen but our lives are still a matter of survival. We don’t hunt bears with spears but if we want to continue living we have to do the hunting equivalent of our day which means getting a stable job and spending most of our waking hours going there and coming home and going there and coming home and going there….
Some people feel that you should try to find a job that brings you some fulfillment as you do it; something that uses your natural gifts. Others seem to think that your quality of life will be best improved by getting a high paying job ( not necessarily enjoyable) that will give you higher quality experiences outside of work. Your house will be nicer. Your kids will go to nicer schools. You will travel farther, more often, and stay in nicer hotels. Either way you have to compromise a huge chunk of your life toward solving the problem of hunger, shelter, and security. The point of this tangent is just to demonstrate that those quality experiences mentioned earlier are probably few and far between in this extremely laborious and repetitive thing called life.
Now throw in the idea of how our value of experiences is affected by the fact that they are fleeting and do not last. It is the same reason why giving flowers is a precious gift because they will soon fade and die. Why do plastic flowers seem so pathetic? Because they are permanent. They have no vitality, freshness, or energy. Life, even in plants, is valued because it doesn’t last. You are lucky because you are there to witness the flowers in the perfect moment before they wilt. Similarly, how are the experiences we mentioned above affected when you remove this significant factor of impermanence from your life?
Are breathtaking views just gorgeous because you may never see them the same way again? Are moments with friends and loved ones so precious because you are not always able to maintain the same closeness throughout your life? Is a skill special because it is the only one you have been able to develop within your allotted time?
I love my sweet wife more today than ever. But I love her for different continually evolving reasons. When I kiss her now my thoughts and actions are informed by more recent events and feelings. Are moments in our past more special because of who we were when they occurred and what our situation was at the time? Our personalities, bodies, lives, priorities, everything continually change. If they did not we would not value those moments.
So if we could choose to live as long as we wanted, would there be a line where we might recognize that we lose something by becoming too familiar with it? Does a well lived life have to include this element of impermanence?
Most people are afraid of death. However many of us believe that our relationships and purpose stretch beyond our deaths. The faith that I was raised with has taught me that all people will be doing stuff forever. Some people will have the freedom to do more things than others but going on is mandatory whether in an inescapable state of bliss or hell. It definitely seems that meeting millions more people, learning all that there is to learn and building everything there is to build will still have a time frame ( though very freak’n big) affixed to it where it will begin to lose value. Would there be a point where even an exalted being would say “It’s been an amazing ride. I’m grateful for every moment-but it needs to end.”?
Do you ever find yourself thinking about this kind of thing? I do all the time and it leads me to conclude that all that really matters is happening right now. The experience that I may one day be remembering as something that made life worth living could be this moment if I’m paying attention. I hope that the excitement really does go on after death and I hope that the concept of eternal progression, which is something that I can’t possibly make sense of with my limited mind, is an exciting reality waiting for me and my loved ones. But whether it is or not still does not affect the significance or beauty of the current moment. In fact you have to admit that you would value your time even more if you believed that it would end at death. Sometimes I wonder if my beliefs in eternal life actually distract or take away from what is happening right now in order to hope and plan for something great that will come in the uncertain future.
Anyway...Bla bla bla. Back to the original question. I think I would want to live for about 400 years. That seems about right. I would learn how to shred on the guitar, sculpt like Michelangelo, speak a few different languages, hang out in most of the prettiest locations in the world, and become the greatest lover to grace the sheets of Shannon’s bed (It doesn’t sound as impressive if I mention that I’m the only lover that has ever graced Shannon’s sheets. But after 400 years I’m sure I would be pretty incredible. Yeah 400 seems about right to me. What do you think?
Scrooge With Hives
1 week ago
19 comments:
Wow. This is honestly a very thought provoking post. I think if anyone asks if we would like to live forever, its an automatic "yes!". Seriously though, how soon would immortality grow old? (so sorry Bella and Edward!)
I would only want to live for a long time if my family and maybe a few friends did as well. It's not the same by yourself. I think I learned that when I went to Europe by myself. There I was, staring up at the Sistine Chapel, and it is BEYOND stunning and its a moment I had waited years for, but as I left the building, I realized it all felt kind of hollow.
Am I rambling yet? Yep. Good, I am following my usual blog comment pattern.
I think what would be fascinating for me would be able to live in the PAST. How cool would that be? Immortality doesnt hold as much appeal for me as time travel.
There is so much I want to say, but now that I am babbling about time travel it might be time for me to go:)
I guess it really depends on what that quality of life would be like.. would I be healthy? Would my family and loved ones be around? It would be interesting to live for a few hundred years though to see the big changes but you know, if everyone I loved and knew was gone I think I might be ready to go to.
Josh responded with an awesome, but lengthy response to this post. Here are some selections.
I know for me I would personally not want to live past 100, to me the thought of living that long would get mundane. There is really only so much you can do in “one” life. I have come to accept the fact that everyone dies. Some will go before others and sometimes we might just think it is too soon. Others may live long lives despite the wishes of all those around them. This may seem like a cliché but I have found it to be true. If you really think about it everyone is dying when you look at them they are getting closer to their death. We all are on the same path and right now there is nothing we can do to change it. We all meet the same fate in the end. So that’s why I really live like I am dying. If there is something I want to do, well I do it, and you will never know when you might get the chance to do it again. You can never tell what the future holds for you...
...On my way home from work a couple months ago I saw a flower shop. I stopped in and got some daisies and a card and wrote a nice note telling her how much I loved her and how grateful I was to have her in my life. When I got home from work I gave them to her and she was so excited and happy and had tears in her eyes. We made love all afternoon and most of the night. It was just a simple gesture. For a week after she would put water in the vase and smell the flowers and take care of them. Every time she looked at the flowers she would smile and tell me she loved me. We went shopping a few weeks later and we got some fake flowers for an arrangement for the dining room table. Do you think either of us ever gave those fake flowers another look or thought, nope I didn’t until I read your blog. That relationship has ended and I was there to watch it blossom and wilt when it had reached the end of its life.
The impermanence of relationships and life is what makes it so special. That last game night we had when I was in town really sticks out in my mind. It was the last time we were all together having a good time. It could be the very last. The uncertainty of what the future holds is what makes life so interesting and gives it meaning.
I like alot of what John said, but, and maybe this illustrates my inability to think outside of the box, how does one (who is not independently wealthy) do the whole "live like you are dying thing?" I kind of get the whole attitude thing, cherishing each moment, etc, but there are a million things I want to do but they cost money and time, neither of which I seem to have. There is some song which says "You're a slave to money and then you die". I don't want to live my life like that..but I dont want to live in my car either. What should I do?
Brilliant. Brilliant brilliant. I think my biggest concern about being able to live to a predetermined length of time is that I'd lose the sense of urgency to do what I want to do TODAY. If I knew I'd be around for 200 years, I might let those 200 years slip away because, I mean, come on - I have 200 years! Who cares if I spend a year of it moping around and doing nothing with my life? And then one year becomes two, which becomes a decade, and that's when life really WOULD lose some of its value.
Then again, today I spend a lot of time worrying - how much longer do I have left with my family? Am I wasting precious time with them by living on the other side of the country? Should I give up on the amazing experiences I'm having out here in D.C. because I'm missing out on my limited time with the people I love in Salt Lake? Maybe if I knew I had a long time, I'd be more able to really enjoy and make the most of all my life's phases, because I'd know that I still had time left for those other phases somewhere down the line...
Your thoughts lead me to think of the importance of "opposition." Should there be no death, would we truly value life and the limited time we have here?
Once we recognize or remember what we must accomplish in this limited time frame, living life gains great meaning and fulfillment.
www.soaringcrowes.blogspot.com
To Lori Ann, I am the farthest thing from being independently wealthy. It is more of a state of mind than being able to do activities. Yeah I don't have money to go sky diving every weekend like I want to. I don't let my lack of funds deter me from having fun. You can have fun and do things you love for free or close to it. I am always trading goods and services to do things, I find people who rock climb and have gear and they teach to to rock climb and I record their bands, stuff like that. If you really want to do it, you can figure a way to do it that does not require money.
There have been times that I have caught myself being really cold to my adorable 3 year old son who is dying for someone to play with because I am doing freelance work. Not even work with a deadline but stock illustrations which have been a very successful and predictable source of side income for me.
I have this future image of myself as a very established Illustrator that I am pushing myself towards. In it I have a great family life because our financial needs have all been met. I play with my kids because I have several sources of residual income coming in.
There's no way for me to know If that fantasy in my head will ever come true. It's good isn't it to have a goal in mind to push for? However, something horrible could happen to me any day that completely destroys that reality.
Should belief in a future reward be what motivates my actions? It seems to have proven reliable thus far but my son is here NOW. Happiness and true contentment are available to me right now.
My health will begin to fail as I age. I will get aches and pains and remember the days when my joints weren't always sore. But right now I feel wonderful. This complicated network of organs is working great but if my mind is always distracted on other things I probably won't care until something changes.
Sometimes I wonder if this doesn't also apply to my faith. When we talk about rules and commandments attached to future rewards and punishments it seems we are doing things based on our hopes for the future. Why is it so important for us to know whether or not god has specified what his thoughts are on powdered tea beverages (thinking of Sheralyn's blog)? Do we really think it has a profound effect on our current level of happiness or are we just trying to make sure that we are on good standing for the judgement or at least a better standing than all those less valiant tea drinkers?
I don't think I like the idea of "living like you are dying" either. Isn't that really just the whole "eat, drink, and be merry for tommorow we die" idea? I think if more of us lived like we were living forever, the world would be a better place. Living now like you (and everyone you know) are going to live forever would enourage us to create, maintain, and value our relationships much better than we would if we knew they were going to end at death.
Sure, age is transient, and the joys of childhood are soon past, but there are joys and wonders at each stage of life, if you look for them. I look forward to seeing my children as teenagers, and to watching them grow into adults. Isn't that part of the tragedy when a child dies young, that you never got to see them grow up? I agree traveling into the past would be great, because I would dearly love to see Parley, my smart aleck ten-year-old, as a sweet and innocent toddler again.
The passion and thrill of a new relationship soon fade, but working on a relationship that will live for years, decades, and beyond this life not only provides romance and love, but changes you yourself into a better person.
What happens right now is important and precious, but we can't forget how important working towards a distant goal is. Living forever without progression, without challenge, without learning and evolving, without those that you love, is not appealing in the slightest. Personally, I have no problem with the idea of living forever. I have so many things I want to do, so many places I want to see, things I want to learn, that there is no way I could fit it all into one life. Having an aging body that keeps you from doing those things would be difficult, but I have such a hard time imagining that everything I am and hope to be is limited by a physical body that could die at any time.
As for the rules and commandments, I operate on the principle that all things that we are commanded to do are not just arbitrary. They are truly things that will lead us to happiness if we follow them. Just like a parent "commands" a child not to touch a hot stove, the Lord has commanded us not to do certain things. If we disobey, it doesn't necessarily mean we are evil, but we then have to live with the consequences of that disobedience. If we touch a hot stove, we get burned. If we use addictive subsances, it can ruin our lives. Some of the other things might not have such immediately obvious negative repercussions, but they doesn't mean that they won't occur. People keep claiming that there's nothing wrong with caffeinated beverages when more and more evidence is building up that they are not just a little but very very detrimental to your health.
I seem to rambling here, but really, it all links back together. If you live like you are going to live forever, you will pass on the instant gratification of some things for those things that will provide a more permanent happiness.
It would depend on my body...i mean if I can have the body I have now and make it last for the ext 200 years in the health it's in now then heck yeah! I would love to experience the world! I do think that living forever would get extremely dull. So not more than oh, say, 200 years.
Here's the thing. Eating Drinking and making merry or rather being gluttonous, getting plastered, and seeking for cheap thrills is horrible advice for finding happiness. I didn't mean this to say that by being aware of the fragility of your life that you should party it up or quit your job and live in a van. If this is what living like you are dying means to most people than Robin is exactly right that it would be horrible to have the world all of a sudden take no responsibility for anyone other than themselves.
I was just pointing to the fact that everything changes, whether for good or bad. We are all aware of this and it informs the value we place on our experiences. Is that not true?
The question was about impermenance. If we imagine our lives as being permanent it's interesting how in many ways it neutralizes many of the things that make life so special. Would we really want it go on? I would but not forever.
If you found out you were going to die today I don't think it would be a big priority at all to go skydiving or spend all your money on momentary pleasures. I doubt the idea would cross your mind. But rather I think you would be looking for meaning. The things that would stick out to you would not be eating, drinking and being merry. I don't think people long for freedom from rules as much as they long for connection with others. I think this is what we would see as having value. People without this tend to want to kill themselves and if they don't get it in the next life than it's unfortunate that they have to keep existing.
For myself, thinking about mpermanence leads me to want to cultivate depth and love within my relationships. It makes me feel more gratitude for what I have.
As for the powdered tea drinks. I was just referencing a blog I read where someone was getting serious flak from a family member over whether or not she should participate in a business that involved a beverage that contained very little caffeine but bore the classification of "tea drink" which I think is ridiculous. I thought it fit in with the topic because it seems like it shouldn't be a concern. I can only guess that the scolder is doing this because they think they will be rewarded in the future even though they might presently be making a loved one feel really crappy. Maybe it was a stretch from the topic.
Gosh Chris, what’s the matter? My post on acrylic nails wasn’t deep enough for ya? You have to go and one up me?! Geez!
I love all these thoughtful comments.
I've always been kind of irritated with the idea of "living for today because you never know what the future holds." I'd rather live today as though I'm going to live well into my 90's and plan accordingly so that I don't find myself at the age of retirement completely unprepared and forced to mooch off of my children for survival. That being said, I would really hate to spend the majority of my life sacrificing and saving only to be hit by a bus and killed at the age of 45. Yeah that would suck. I guess like with everything in life there needs to be a balance. I know someone who cashed out their 401k to take a huge trip to Europe. A year later she found out she had cancer. She was really glad she had taken that trip and kind of got on a soap box about the importance of not putting things off and living for the day. But guess what, she lived. She made a full recovery. Her cancer's in remission and she could easily live to be a very old woman. What's she going to do when she's too old to work?
Ok, but back to the original question. If I could live as long as I wanted it would be... sure 400 years sounds good. But I agree with Doug. I'd be afraid that the more time I had the more I'd piffle it away in procrastination.
Also Doug, in regard to your family, do you think that in a way you've grown closer to your family being further away? Hasn’t it made you value your time with them more than when you lived in the same city? When Kat and Ryan lived in Salt Lake we totally took them for granted. We saw them at family gatherings but rarely beyond that. Now that they're in Portland I realize how much I miss them and I regret that we didn't spend more time together when they lived here.
Anyway, I think I like the idea of reincarnation better than living forever, or maybe it's an easier concept for me to wrap my head around.
"Should belief in a future reward be what motivates my actions?"
in my opinion, absolutely not!!!
i have a cousin who has been sick with severe depression for almost 20 years. last year she came out of her illness and has been in a state of recovery. in the time since she got healthy she has moved out on her own and started traveling almost non-stop, seeing all the places she used to dream about. her attitude is that she doesn't know how much time she has left. her depression could come back, she could get hit by a bus, who knows? so she is living like she is dying, knowing full well that a life lived in anticipation of death (or what comes after)is a death in itself.
i think that i would like to live longer, if only to get back the time that i lost with my own illnesses. i spent so much time longing for the sweet healing power of death(god), to release my sickness. shuffling off this mortal coil was a goal i looked towards, and something i put my faith in. but the truth is, if i am looking to something beyond the sunset to make me healthy or happy, then i am living just to die, and i may as well be gone already.
and i don't want to die. not yet. gimme and extra 60 or so years and i'll be good.
maybe.
The whole live as if you were dying is not meant to make you blow your life savings and be completely irresponsible. We all need to take steps to prepare for the future be it a 401k, a pension, or a IRA. To me its more of a state of mind, I am not gonna let my fear of being taken care of when I reach retirement age deter me from taking that trip to South America. I am sure when I am old and retired I would rather have the memories of that trip then the extra $50 a month in my 401k, but thats just me. With everything there needs to be some accountability.
There's obviously two very valid perspectives on this issue but I still think it is very valuable to ponder about.
There are some things that are very useful about living like you are going to live forever especially when we look at a whole society as Robin mentioned. There is also something that is useful about admitting that we are hoping for good things but in the mean time there is something profound that is happening right now. I don't think it is something that costs money or requires irresponsibility on our part to enjoy. In our everyday life we pass up many opportunities because we think we know what the future will be.
The other day I was working in the garden. I have a great view of the entire Salt Lake valley. It's very cool to soak in the view just as the sun is going down and all the city lights are shimmering. The thing is that I have to walk to the end of the park across the street to really see it. Every night I look over there and think that I would like to go stand there and enjoy it but people will see me standing there on the sidewalk being weird. The thought entered my mind that the opportunity is now. I can look at the sunset like I'm never going to see another. I did, and I'm sure I looked weird, but it was amazing. I stayed out there until I felt content that I had really internalized that whole experience. Meanwhile many of the evening shows that pull me out of reality were on inside competing for my attention.
Similarly, if you think about the fragility of your body every breath becomes a miracle. You are overcome with gratitude for the gift that is your life. How the hell is it all working so perfectly right now? Sorry this all sounds so cheesy. But thinking about this has seriously helped improve the quality of my daily experience.
The idea is not to swap your plans for living with plans for dying but just to be really aware of the changing nature of your life. Sure it is better to plan on living forever. Your goals will, more than likely, affect your future positively. But there may be many things that looking back on your life you would find great value in that you might overlook by living just for the future. The future hasn't happened yet. It is a fantasy in your brain. I think it is important to recognize that.
So Shannon just called me and said "Your last comment on your blog kinda made me go (through the nose laugh)"
Shannon said she would pick the TV show over the sunset. Maybe I'm just a cheesy romantic. Just stop laughing at me okay guys!
Yeah, this is waaay deeper than acrylic nails!
I am not a huge fan of the whole 'survival' part of life. If I could just do the fun stuff than I would live a couple hundred years but, obviously, I can't do that.
I think if we had longer we would always just waste the time away and not appreciate it. When we know our time is limited we do all we can to make that time worth while and if we had hundreds of years we'd probably just nap a lot and catch up on all our TIVO.
I think a lack of permanence makes us appreciate life more just as having to do chores and all the hard stuff of life helps us to appreciate the fun and enjoyable things of life.
Thanks for this very thought-provoking post and the follow-up comments from everyone. I have enjoyed reading and pondering the questions it poses.
Sometimes when I do the dishes or help Robin put away the groceries or lug 40-pound bags of salt down the stairs to the water softener (or tons of other mundane tasks), I ask myself, “Will I be doing this for eternity?” I hope not. I don't like repetition, although I realize life is full of it.
The thought of living forever has always made me a bit queasy, mostly because of my aversion to repetition. Even if we were doing amazing things each day as exalted beings, wouldn’t it get old after a while? I don’t like to think about it too long because my finite mind cannot comprehend the infinite. Even my daughter Brianna told me once that thinking about living forever makes her “tummy feel kind of weird.” So I try to focus how I live my life on the present moment, and less on expectations of the hereafter. I believe in eternal life, but I follow Christian teachings because I believe them to be the blueprint of happiness and peace in THIS life.
When my dad was told he had six months to live, I often thought about what I would do given a similar prognosis. It certainly would depend on my health (my dad was seriously ill during his final months), but I think I'd focus on deepening relationships and creating shared experiences together. One commenter posted about visiting the Sistine Chapel without having someone to share it with. I went to New York for the first time back in 2003 on a business trip, and although I enjoyed seeing the sights, it wasn’t nearly as enjoyable as when Robin and I returned there last year. Having shared experiences with someone you love makes a world of difference.
Anyway, the idea that impermanence makes things more meaningful is quite intriguing. A gorgeous sunset or a beautiful rainbow wouldn’t be nearly as special if they were always there. The fact that these displays of nature last for just a few fleeting moments adds to their charm.
Having a pinched sciatic nerve right now makes living forever seem like a REALLY long time, so the first thing I would require is a perfectly healthy body.
But really, when you think about it, despite the whole "soulless" aspects, vampires have the corner on this one. They're going to live forever but could also die any day (or night) if they make a misstep. They have the best of both worlds :)
It's a deep question Chris, but I guess the answer to it depends on whether I a) have a superpower or b) serve some godly purpose by perpetuating my physical existence.
If the answer is no to both of those, I don't see a point. Might as well just hit the dirt ;)
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